Why the economy needs arts and humanities with Dr Ladan Cockshut

Business researcher Dr Ladan Cockshut joins Bryony Armstrong to talk about: 

• What the Creative, Digital and IT (CDIT) sector is and how much it’s growing
• The huge array of industries that need creative skills
• How Arts and Humanities academics interact with practitioners in the CDIT sector
• How creativity can lead to income
• Creating changes and measurable economic growth with creativity
• Why it’s short sighted to say that an Arts and Humanities education doesn’t support labour market needs

Episode references:

• The Office for Students announcement about funding cuts: https://www.officeforstudents.org.uk/news-blog-and-events/press-and-media/ofs-confirms-funding-reforms/
• Kiln Cafe in Newcastle: https://www.kiln.cafe/
• The report on changes in the north east economy: https://dro.dur.ac.uk/30075/ 

Find Bryony @BF_Armstrong
Find Ladan @LadanCockshut
Get in contact with Ladan: t.l.cockshut@durham.ac.uk

Artwork: Riduwan Molla https://www.canva.com/p/riduwanmolla/
Music: Madaan Mansij https://www.pond5.com/artist/mansij_tubescreamer

This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Transcript

Bryony Armstrong: 0:04

Hello, and welcome to What's the Point, the podcast where we discuss the need for arts and humanities today. I'm your host, Bryony Armstrong. We're living in a time when the arts and humanities are under threat, and I know this firsthand, having studied both English and maths at university, and now doing a PhD in English. Each week, I'll be joined by a guest talk about what arts and humanities do for the world. If you've ever wondered, what's the point of the arts and humanities, then this is the podcast for you. Hi, everyone, thanks for tuning in to What's the Point. Today's guest is Dr. Ladan Cockshut, who's here to talk to me about one of the issues that gets brought up, I think, the most when the need for arts and humanities is challenged. And that's its relationship to the economy. Ladan is an assistant professor of research in the business school at Durham University, and is also a senior researcher on a project called Creative Fuse North East. Creative Fuse brings together academics at universities in the north east of the UK to support the fast growing creative, digital and IT sector in the region. These academics work with industry, cultural organizations, creative practitioners, and the public sector to support the growth of the creative and digital economy and help to create more and better jobs in the north east. So let's get into the episode. So, you're my first guest to be currently in a job or department outside arts and humanities, and that's business at the moment. But you did begin your career with a humanities degree. So can you tell me about how you came to choose a humanities subject?

Ladan Cockshut: 1:55

Yeah, so, I did a Comparative Literature degree at the University of California in Santa Cruz. It was Chinese and English literature that I was doing a study of, and in America, you're allowed to do a kind of open...aross different subjects when you start your degree. And initially, I thought I was going to do psychology, but I realized what I was passionate about was writing...was about engaging with different literatures and I was able to change my degree to do literature, and I was also studying Chinese language at the time. So I was able to build in my study of Chinese literature. So I was really lucky. And I think I have always been passionate about the cultural aspects of human life...how do we express ourselves? How do we experience it? And literature seemed to be the perfect route in that for me, I am so glad I was able to change and shift. And that actually shifted into a career in publishing for me after I finished my degree, so. So I'm really grateful for that opportunity.

Bryony Armstrong: 2:59

It's a fascinating kind of nonlinear journey you've had. I similarly, I guess, slightly aligned with the US system, did a degree in Scotland, which lets you do three subjects in your first two years, which is how I ended up doing English and maths together. And I think it's always interesting to me to hear when people have the opportunity to branch out and choose lots of subjects, which ones they eventually settle on as the things that have sort of the most pull for them, or the things that they consider might actually be the most useful for them.

Unknown: 3:32

Absolutely, I mean, I think I've developed my writing and critical thinking skills especially well, doing a degree in English. I'm not sure if that would have been as available to me in other subject areas. And I have noticed over my career...and it has been a diverse portfolio, as you say...I have used those skills time and time again. And that really started at university and before obviously at high school, but yeah.

Bryony Armstrong: 3:59

I agree. And that's why I'm always telling people that I think English is actually a bit more useful to me than maths in my everyday life, contrary to what we usually hear, I think. So you're working at the moment with Creative Fuse North East, and this connects specialists in universities with the creative, digital and IT sector. So can you please just firstly explain sort of what the CDIT sector is? So what kind of organizations or businesses come under this umbrella? And then sort of speak to the significance of the current growth that's happening in this sector?

Unknown: 4:36

Yeah, absolutely. So CDIT is kind of a loosely gathered collection of businesses. And it's largely been created by the British government actually as a way of coding and organizing types of businesses, keeping in mind that businesses can be sole traders, so they can be one individual. And it covers everything...I think that the formal definition is those industries which originate in individual creativity, skill and talents, with the potential for wealth and job creation, and the exploitation of intellectual property. So that's a really boring definition. But when you look at it, a grid of it includes a lot of diverse businesses and types of work. So it can be anyone who's working in film and television, the visual performing arts, it can be those who work in arts and crafts, it can be games studios, so people producing computer or video games, it can be with people working in advertising and marketing. It can also include publishing, and it also includes computing and everything that relates to it. So you can even think of social media companies as examples of that, and people working as social influencers or people working in esports are a good example. It also includes more traditional areas you might think of such as the heritage and cultural sectors, museums, and the arts. And anything we haven't thought of yet. Some of it has to do with how you might identify as an individual. So I often use the term creative practitioner for people who work as an artist or as a musician, but it can also be big companies. So Google is an example of another business in the CDIT sector, for example. And there's also allied areas, which kind of complement or perhaps tap into this a little bit. So I'm thinking of things like tourism, hospitality, transportation, the volunteer and charity sectors, and even retail, all of them are either enabled by the CDIT sector or work collaboratively with them. So I hope that answers that question.

Bryony Armstrong: 6:39

So this is huge. This is bigger than I even realized, thinking about it. I mean, I use Google multiple times a day, as I'm sure a lot of people do. And Twitter at the moment, it's probably one of our biggest conversation points given some of the controversy that's going on. So yeah, I didn't realize that this was actually that enormous.

Ladan Cockshut: 6:58

Yeah, yeah, it is. In fact, if you think of the whole sector, it is it is one of the biggest ones. And it has a massive contribution to the economy of the United Kingdom and globally as well. So if you think of the games industry, in particular, it's actually a bigger industry than the the film industry now. And all those studios, all those companies and individuals who make games by themselves, they're all part of that sector. course, it's...it's...it's exciting to see that. So some of the terminology is basically just catch all words that governments and other agencies need to have to organize it when they're describing it, or they're saying, Okay, there's been X number of new jobs in this industry. But yeah, I think we're the...the sky's the limit as far as what we do and how it evolves in the future. It'll be exciting to see.

Bryony Armstrong: 7:57

Yeah, and speaking of the sky being the limit, I know you kind of work in Creative Fuse North East around sort of research and innovation, and also collaboration and knowledge exchange, I think within Creative Fuse that includes things like workshops and supporting internships and conferences, etc. So could you give us some examples of how, sort of, specifically arts and humanities academics interact with the CDIT sector through Creative Fuse North East?

Unknown: 8:25

Yeah, happy to. So our project, as you rightly point out, is about empowering or enabling those who work within the arts and humanities sectors to...to thrive, to grow and to develop, and a big part of that is collaborating, knowledge exchange, and kind of...propelling us towards new areas of knowledge and creative production. And one great example of that might be an academic collaborating with an artist to explore a concept. So, for example, we've had projects where an academic at the university has collaborated with a local poet to explore the landscape of poetry across the north east region, which might include funding to enable that artists to be a resident... to pursue a residency at the university, for example, and work with students at the university. And it gives them a higher profile and enables them to perhaps improve their options as an artist, but it also enables the academic to work in the community and to expose that. We've also been...I've also been part of a very exciting project called Street Museum, which took place over the last year and a bit, and this project was about working with the colleagues who curate our museums and who work in those areas at the university to bring the museum to a community in County Durham and this place in particular was Blackhall Colliery. Through the community center there we were able to 3D print objects from the museum and put them on display all around the community, for the community to go and look at and learn about those objects, which are priceless artifacts that would usually be sitting in a museum, but we're able to bring them out to the community. So you have people working with young people, with children, their community with families, we had amazing fun activities going on at the community center. And it really brought people a greater awareness of the universities and museums and collections. And it enabled lots of different people to get involved across the arts, humanities, but also other departments of the university.

Bryony Armstrong: 10:27

And my previous guest, actually, was Norma Gregory, who works on the Digging Deep project, bringing narratives and objects to do with black miners in the UK to different museums. And she kind of spoke to the benefits of bringing community together through kind of like heritage and arts and humanities related things, so I can really see sort of like the necessity of creating collaboration there and bringing people to objects and to collections. This brings me quite well to my next question, which is this idea of creativity. So creative is sometimes a word that people can use, I guess, in sort of a derogatory way with with the sort of disparagement of Arts and Humanities related jobs. And creativity is often, kind of, seen as synonymous with, like, a dead end job, for example. But I know that you work with creative practitioners and businesses, as you said. So can you speak to, sort of, your experience of the creative industries and how we can think about their social place, but also their economic place in the UK and the north east as well, specifically?

Unknown: 11:32

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's a really, really good question. And I run into this all the time when talking to individuals. One of my favorite things is hearing people say ,I'm not creative, when in fact, they've been incredibly creative with how they've solved a problem, with how they've explored an idea. So you can be incredibly creative and still be an engineer or be a builder or be a plumber, you may have just come up with it with a canny way of solving a problem. And so a lot of...a lot of what's happening in...in the idea of creativity...and I suppose I like to think of what we do as a...almost like a portfolio. So you've got like a book of things that make you who you are, and every chapter tells a detail of what talent or skill that you might have. And you put the book together, and you apply different things in that book, to who you are and the work you might do. And so, what we do as creative people, so we might, for example, if you're really, really good at drawing, you're also generally very good at mathematics, because you might have a good idea of geometry. But you might not think about that, because you're thinking, well, it's just...it's just colour and drawing lines, and I'm just good at capturing a face. Well, actually, it's quite difficult to do. So being really, really good at one subject is really good at another and in fact, there's been research done, which has shown that...that artists or creative people tend to use more of their brain, both sides of their brain than than other people do, because they're engaging with all different elements. It's not just about pretty colors, and making things look look nice or sound nice. It's also about that process of creation that we go through. So I would say that it should be in everything that we do. And there was a recent commission put together...the Arts Council asked Durham University to lead a creativity commission, which was completed a few years ago now. And in that they were talking to students at college and school, and they were talking to teachers and people who work in the creative sector, and they were talking to businesses, and they said, what do we need? Everyone universally agreed there's not enough creativity being taught in the classroom, being taught through subject areas, so that when you get into the workplace, you're able to apply that experience. So I would argue that it's essential across everything we do. So rather than it being seen as a dead end job, or something that's not going to guarantee you any income, I would say, turn that on its side and think well, what are the skills I have? And how will I apply them in different work that I do? And what I'm seeing is a trend, and this is happening across the north east and elsewhere, is networking is really important, so knowing who to connect with. And don't just connect with people who are in your own area of interest, because you never know where new opportunities are going to come out. So the truth is...and this is frustrating if you are an artist, so if you're a sculptor, for example, and that's what you want to do...it may be difficult to get a regular nine to five paid job to be a sculptor. That's difficult to do. But what you might see...what you might need to do is to have a lot of projects where you generate income for yourself and some of those will come from collaboration. So collaboration is really essential, and collaboration in areas where there is a way to generate an income. So for example, we...what we tried to do through Creative Fuse, and what's happening across the sector, is we try to empower artists or creative people to apply their skills across different sectors. So for example, maybe they would collaborate to help deliver workshops that benefit people's wellbeing to help people who are living with dementia, for example, so maybe you would teach them or work with them in a workshop setting, and you might get paid by a charity to do that you might get paid by the NHS to do that. Perhaps you apply a skill to teaching. So maybe you would also teach your skill to other people, you could become a tutor. Or you could run workshops, which would be really fun for people to sign up and learn a little bit how to do an art skill. In fact, we just did that three weeks ago at the community fun day that the university hosted. It was a big, big celebration of all the different projects that universities are involved with that benefit the wider community. And what we were able to do is invite along 11 of our artists that we have...artists and craftspeople. And they set up their tables, and they just taught some basic arts and crafts skills to the community. Everyone got to have a go. We were encouraging everyone to sit down. Of course, there were lots of, especially mums and dads, who were like, well, I'm not creative. So we would say no, you really should sit down and do this activity with your kids. And everyone was having fun, everyone was learning something. And they might have learned how to do some watercolour painting, or they might have learned how to do some sewing stitches. But the idea was to show how amazingly talented artists were, to enable them to make perhaps new opportunities for themselves, and also to enable the community to enjoy being creative together. So I think that's where things need to go, I think...thinking about different spaces and places where the creative industries are being celebrated. And also, I've also noticed a lot of collaborative working as in collectives. So you're seeing a lot of artists working together in groups on projects. And that really supports them as well. It might help them work together as a livelihood. So you're seeing lots of things. In fact, this...early this week, we had the north east cultural awards. And one of the awards was best newcomer and kin collective, which is a collective of disabled artists, was given that award. And it's an amazing new initiative that actually came up during the pandemic, to give a voice and a presence to disabled artists, but also to enable them to work together. Because when we work together, we're always stronger. And it gives us a little bit of a buffer. So I would also think that's a trend for where we're going in the creative sector. So it's okay to be on your own, but also think about ways to work with other people, and you never know what opportunities that might open up for you.

Bryony Armstrong: 17:18

That's amazing. Yeah, and living in the north east, I can really feel the creativity when I go to Newcastle and go to places like the Baltic Art Gallery, where there's different exhibitions every few months. And I went to a cafe recently that I can't remember the name of that was also like a pottery area, like had kilns and stuff. And I love living in the north east, specifically because of that, because it does feel so creative. It feels like there's so much going on. So speaking about that...was it the north east cultural awards you were talking about and kind of different spaces and places...is this something that you think...because Creative Fuse North East is specific to this area...is this something that's kind of, like reinvigorating, or specifically helping the economy of the north east? Sort of because of what's going on here? Or how is this, sort of, like, interacting with specifically the north east economy.

Unknown: 18:13

So we're lucky in that this is the second phase of our project, and we had an evaluation done as a first phase and we were...we were able to evidence an economic benefit. So they were able to measure that. We're waiting for our evaluation report from this time of the project because we have almost a year left on it. But the signs are positive that we are having an impact. The ways in which we work as a project is...is creating opportunities, signposting experiences, creating those networks so people can connect. I like to call it a serendipitous engagement that happen. So for example, one of the projects that we, just by coincidence, we've been able to put together this year was I had asked two of the organizations that I work with, one is called Changing Relations. The other is the Blackhall Community Centre. So again, you might not think oh, those don't sound like artists, but actually, Changing Relations uses art and creative methods to engage in healthy conversations about domestic abuse, and...and sexual education, sex education. So they do amazing work, but they use art as their mechanism to...to have those conversations. And Blackhall Community Centre is a cultural hub through East Durham Creates. And they also do a lot of amazing, creative, fun, artistic activities. They're a space that hosts a lot of artistic endeavors as well, such as dance and performances, theater, and so forth. So these are really important organizations. Well, I asked them both to sit on a panel for me because we were talking about how to get funding to...how do you pursue funding to support yourself as an artist, and they hadn't met each other before. So this is the first time they met and as a result of meeting each other, they're now pursuing a new project together to seek funding to deliver a project in both Bishop Auckland and Blackhall Colliery around enabling a healthy conversation about reducing domestic abuse. And so we're looking for funding as we speak. And they said very kindly that this wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been introduced by me, that they wouldn't have made those connections. And, hopefully, this is a new project that they can pursue. So I think that's one of the...the perfect examples of how we were able to kind of connect people and introduce people. And also, I was just going to say that this is a great time to be in the north east. There has been an acknowledgement that there was less funding that comes into our area. And then there's now an attempt to try and distribute that funding a little bit further around.The cost of living is really low, still, in the north east. And even in the middle of the horrible crisis that we're in right now, it's still more affordable than other parts of the country. And I have never been in a community where people are so open to ideas, and so keen to work with each other, so generous with their help and support to each other. And there are some amazing organizations that you can tap into to help you especially if you're new in your career, and you're looking for new opportunities. For example, if you're, you know, you're a budding writer, there's New Writing North, which is an amazing organization, they do all sorts of things, especially with young people between the ages of 12 and 25. And so you can get tapped into a lot of their activities and opportunities. There's awards that are coming upn ow, there's new publishing initiatives. So there's all sorts of stuff that you can kind of get involved with. We have five universities in the area. So that's always a great place to get...get tapped into the buzz of energy of what's going on as well. And so there's there's lots to do. And that's the...that's the feeling that we had. And also you I'm sure you're aware, but Durham very bravely put in a bid to be city of culture for 2025. We got all the way through to the final four. So we were shortlisted. Unfortunately, we didn't win. But that...I know, it's such a shame...Bradford won, good for them. But we really just threw our hat in the ring. It was a county wide thing as well, which was...has never been done before. That was the reason we actually had decided to apply, because before then you had to really be a city and Durham city is quite small, you know. It's a city but it's very cozy city. So we did...we put in a bid to be countywide. We wanted to enable the whole county and that created some really exciting new possibilities for us around how you do that. How do you empower and build up a community and a county, which is deprived? We are economically more deprived in other areas. How do you build us up using the arts and culture as a celebratory experience and create not just opportunities and excitement, but also sustainable changes, and then see measurable economic growth for us as well. We are keeping going with that. So even though we didn't win the city of culture title, we got a very small bit of money to keep exploring the ideas. And we are determined to keep going and we have the commitment of the three main partners on that project. So this is a great time to get involved in activities like that, especially in the county, and more will be coming. So if you are thinking about a career in the arts, or the creative subjects, this is a good time to think about it and to say, why not me? You know, why not see if there's a possibility there and go with it. And it's great to be part of a project, which is all about that. I think research should be impactful. It shouldn't just be thinking about what we're doing and writing publications to other academics. It should...it should have a transformative effect on the communities that we are working with. It should be shaped around their needs and their interests. And I'm very blessed that that's what I've always been able to do in my academic work. I've been able to work with...with communities, with individuals, shaping my research around their needs, shine a light on what they're doing, and give them a voice. And I think now is a great time and Creative Fuse North East has been a fantastic project to be involved with because it allows me to do that. In fact, it requires me to do that, because that's one of the guiding principles of our projects. And it feels like a perfect connection between what a university can do and what communities would like to see universities do for them. So it's it's an interesting time to be part of that.

Bryony Armstrong: 24:19

Yeah, it's very inspiring to hear, sort of, what what an investment in the arts and humanities can do for, kind of, the sustainable future of an area. So we've talked about the fact that creative is a word that we usually associate with arts and humanities, but digital and IT is not really, even though digital humanities is kind of becoming a bigger area. So can you speak to the relationship between arts and humanities academics or creative practitioners, and the digital IT world? You have a little bit already but, sort of...what sort of knowledge...knowledge exchange and collaborations are taking place specifically in digital and IT?

Ladan Cockshut: 24:58

Yeah, no, that's great. I did...yeah, so I mentioned Street Museum, which was a good example. There was another really fun project that we did in the beginning of the pandemics lockdown. So the very first lockdown there was...obviously everyone was cut off. County Durham doesn't have a very strong digital presence. So other areas might have, like, apps to connect to people. And people were obviously using WhatsApp or Facebook and all of that, which was great. But there was an initiative to see, could we have something that was more bespoke to Durham? To not only help local residents, but also maybe connect local businesses to help them because we were all, you might remember, a bit worried about how high streets were faring, with all the shops having to be shut down, especially if they didn't have a digital presence already. So how do you take the kind of regular functioning people and give them that experience? The same thing was happening with our artists, because a lot of artists were teaching workshops, and they were doing...going to craft fairs, they were selling their goods, they were going into galleries, and all that shut down. In fact, some, unfortunately, they were about to get paid to do some work, and it was all just cancelled. And so they lost a livelihood, which is very scary. So in those situations, there were some interesting projects that were emerging, trying to support and enable people to get online, to sell products online, to share information online. And I think it was...it was a good opportunity for people to really dive into that. And you can see where the digital really enabled arts and humanities. For some it was feeling forced to do it, maybe they weren't so thrilled, they had to, kind of, increase their social media presence, or they had to go online and, kind of, share information. But I would say that at the end of the day, that the digital IT sector are enables...enablers of creative production...is the way I would kind of describe it. So they're not the end all be all. It's a little bit like a different kind of canvas. So you might use a, you know, basic canvas that you might buy in a shop, to paint something, or you might use some sort of digital tool to do it. So we are seeing new trends towards things like digital arts, because that is a...yet another mechanism by which you can express creativity. So I would say that that's one of the sort of more straightforward ways to think of how digital and IT fit within that sphere. But I think as well, they are also sites of creative production. So we you mentioned Twitter earlier. So whether we love Twitter or not, which has been a...one of the many social media arms that have come up, and we may be seeing it dying now, which is interesting as well, because obviously, we haven't seen a big social media giant of that scale, die. But it...you know, it has enabled connections, it is a creative output. So to be able to design it the way that they did, to connect to people the way that they did, for better or worse, it has become a kind of...a perfect example of a creative output in our time. And we, you know, we obviously have become reliant on all these kinds of mechanisms of social...social media. I'd say apps are also a great way that the arts and the creative sector are able to communicate. And so those also fit within it. So I think if you think of that idea that these things are products of creative production, or they enable creative production of different forms and shapes, then you could see how it might fit within the arts and humanities. But at the same time, I would say it's...it's, you know, it's one of many tools. It's one of many mechanisms. But I would also have a hard time seeing how it's not creative, because that's the other side of that, that kind of question, isn't it? It's like, how isn't it? But then, you know, you can think of some of the most current things that we enjoy that are creative output. So streaming music...streaming is a great example of that as well, because we have so many ways in which, now, that we curate our own music playlists. Like we have our own tastes and music, we don't have to buy an album to then listen to it, we can we can pick and select. And that, again, is because of the innovation that's come through digital technologies and kind of exploring that, you know. 20 or 30 years ago, people would have listened to the music that was popular to them at that time, it would have been harder to tap into music, maybe their parents or grandparents or listen to. Now, you know, it's not so uncommon to listen to a song from today, then after that a song from 20 years ago and then a song from 40 years ago, and no one would bat an eyelid but I don't think anyone would have predicted that and I don't think that would have been possible without the technology that music streaming enables us to have. So...so I think it's kind of a part of it now, but I can see how that...you know...I say that again...I'm so sorry, I'm sorry to ramble, but I was thinking about games as well. So we think about games as a...strictly a computer or a kind of technical thing but no, they're not. We have board games, we have face to face games. We have large outside role playing games, we have escape rooms, there's all sorts of ways. So the...the...the emergence of computer games or video games, it's really just because of the technology enabling us to do so. We have always been playful. We have always made games, we've always found ways to connect with each other like that. This is just the latest, you know, and obviously VR technology is probably the next step, or is presumed to be the next step for gaming, you know that we haven't quite...haven't quite finished the technology. So there's, you know, there's always going to be a new way that we want to play. And I think that's the same thing with all of the arts.

Bryony Armstrong: 30:20

Yeah. And it's so interesting, I was thinking while you were speaking of how, sort of, digital and IT are kind of enabling arts and humanities and creative things, and it's also vice versa, that there wouldn't be huge computer game companies with all these jobs and people coding if it weren't for, kind of, somebody coming up with the story and the original designer. So they're not as separate as I think we often make them out to be. And they're not as separate as, sort of, I guess, the government would make them out to be when they're saying that we're going to cut some subjects and not others, because they're sort of contributing to the economy.

Ladan Cockshut: 30:56

Yeah, yeah, that is a big, big problem. I mean, I really, really don't understand this need to compartmentalize and segmentalise. You cannot have things without each other, you know. You can't. One of the concerns I have about an over fixation on STEM subjects only is it can be at the loss of crucial skills that are learned in arts and humanities subjects, such as critical thinking, analysis, writing skills, these are really important. If we lose all of those, what are we doing it for? What's the point of it? How are we going to be able to have those kinds of open conversations and, plus, people who have those skills become really important in STEM subjects, and also in STEM...I don't know if you'd want to call them STEM allied subjects, like the digital IT sectors, those that kind of rely on it a little bit more. So, writing for games, adaptation of literature or other content into new media, you know, enabling social influencers...how are they working in those spaces as well? How do we bring art or explore concepts of art, or outside thinking, into STEM subjects, because the most innovative scientists have always also been incredibly creative. There's...there's great research about that. So a lot of people who are recipients of Nobel Prizes are also accomplished musicians. So they might be amazing at STEM subjects but are also amazing musicians. So there's a relationship there that we will lose if we don't...we don't value it. And also, these are the ways in which we connect to community. If I just show up to the community saying, right, here, I'm going to tell you what you need in your community, that...it's not as fun, it's not as engaging. Arts are a way that we conect. And also, the NHS is finding ways to enable people's health and wellbeing through social prescribing. And it's becoming, now, do this art exercise. So if we don't have skilled people coming through, who are able to teach and work in these spaces, who are artistic, who are able to work with things like art therapy, and play therapy, and other things like that, you know, we're...we're going to continue to struggle as a society. These things are not binary. And I think that's a real short sighted view of how the subjects...and...and also, you can't judge someone solely by their graduate earning potential. There is so much more to the picture than that. But then there's also a question as to, why do we pay some subjects more than others? There is a degree of arbitrariness that we've decided. It's a construct, like many things. We've decided this job is worth X amount, and this job is worth Y amount, when actually, there's no reason they couldn't be equally paid. You know, I'd love to see an argument for why that job is worth more than this job. You know, it does seem to be that those who work in the humanities often accept...are expected to accept a far lower pay than other industries, for reasons I have yet to see a compelling argument for.

Bryony Armstrong: 33:45

You are speaking my language. I mean, because you're so right, that the skills that we pick up in arts and humanities are still skills that are relevant in STEM subjects. So an example I give people sometimes is I did an English and math degree. And when it came time to write my maths dissertation, my supervisor asked me to write a draft of my introduction and give it to him. And I went to my supervision after handing it in, and he was like, unbelievably excited. He was like, this is the best dissertation introduction I've ever read. He was so excited. And I was like, yeah, I guess because I'm probably the first...I was only the second person at my uni to have done that joint degree...so I was thinking, well, I guess this is the only time he's ever read a maths dissertation written by someone taking English. And it's just so amusing to me that a lot of people in that department, I would hear them being very disparaging about people studying English. And yet when I submitted something that incorporated the skills I had got from the English department, they were mind blown. So it's just so funny to me how they kind of tried to do the divide and conquer thing but it doesn't really work like that because bringing the skills together is actually really useful.

Ladan Cockshut: 34:55

It's funny too, because we are...we are now...there is a trend in research. There's a few trends in funding for research, obviously, we have to pivot when the research funding puts those requirements out to us. There's two main things. One is interdisciplinary, collaborative working. So they're expecting academics to work with each other, across different disciplines. Now, I have to say my...my very first postdoc was a project just like that, and we did not work very well across disciplines. There was a coming together, the, kind of, leads on the project would come together, there'd be a talking and everyone would go back to their corners. And then when it came to things like, well, how am I going to publish? What am I going to do? Oh, no, don't worry about it, we'll just do our own thing. So they got the funding saying they were going to work well together. But actually, in practice, it was difficult to do because the the eventual benefits of the work you do come...tell you not to work together. So it's a very, very strange system there. The other part which is...which is coming through with funding requirement is that we are in the community that we are working with business, that we are enabling knowledge exchange, as you mentioned earlier. Well, in order to do that, businesses don't really care if you're a purist in English, or you're a purist in math, they want...they want whatever will benefit and move things forward. They're much more practical in that regard. And so I think that's pushing it. So hopefully, in time, that kind of academic mindset will evolve to appreciate that diversity and that, kind of...the the immense skill set that people have when they have gone across different lines. But unfortunately, I think it's...people are still very stuck in their little towers. And we haven't quite figured out a way to get those barriers broken down. I am seeing some shifts, but a lot of it is, you get externally funded by a project, and then the project dies, because the funding ends, and then everyone moves on. To make real systemic change, I think there has to be a little bit more of a blurring of those lines, you know. Maybe...maybe two departments need to merge. I don't know what they are. But you know, maybe there should be...English and history should merge, you know, or English and maths should merge! You know, there's always been some mathematicians who feel that mathematics is an arts and humanities subject. It's not a science subject. So I know there's there's that philosophy there. So, you know, why aren't we doing that? Why isn't philosophy, you know, mixed with biology? Why isn't geography mixed with with marketing? I don't know. I mean, I think these are...these are the questions. Some universities do do that. But it's...they're very few and far between. And I think for the most part, we stick to our subjects. And I think it's, unfortunately, a little bit to the disadvantage of what happens after university, what happens in the future. So yeah, so I'm really glad...I'm really glad you did that, though. I think that's really exciting. And I hope that was a lesson for them.

Bryony Armstrong: 37:42

I hope so. I mean, my friend, Greg...so shout out to you, Greg, who I studied maths with, he's doing computer science PhD now, was always trying to get me to see, sort of, the creativity behind maths, and some people do kind of see it as an art. So thanks for speaking to that. So we've talked about this...one of the main arguments that we always hear against studying arts and humanities is that it's a drain on the economy. And to quote the Office for Students who recently announced, sort of, cuts to some of these subjects, they don't support specific labor market needs. I'll leave a link to that Office for Students announcement in the show notes. So this is kind of the big question. The final question, how has your work with Creative Fuse North East shown you a different picture? You've touched on this a bit, but what is, sort of your argument to be made for arts and humanities in terms of labor needs? And in terms of the economy?

Ladan Cockshut: 38:37

Oh, my God, I think we need another two hours for that question. It's such a good question. It's remarkably short sighted because I would ask them to show me the evidence. How would they then argue against the evidence that shows the general impact on the economy that comes from the arts and humanities and not just the production of the arts, but also the study of the arts? So if you think about the ecosystem that forms around a particular creative artifact, so film, for example, you have all of the work that goes into making a film, everything from the production side to the development side to the creative side, you need you need skilled actors, you need skilled writers, you need producers, you need editors, you need technical colleagues. And then you need people on the ground. You need people who source locations, you need people who are kind of resourcing those things up. There's also retail, hospitality, transport, all those entities benefit from that one object that's been created...that one film that comes in and has a positive impact on economies. Yorkshire's seeing that right now because they've had an upswing of film locations being used and I know that there is an intention to do that with...the BBC is putting some money into the north east and they're trying to improve locations. Everyone knows when people start to use film locations for filming, that that brings in a benefit to the local economy. Every time an industry, a large industry, is being shut down, there is a knock on effect in a multiplicity around. So for example, if a museum is shut down. This...let's talk about Beamish, it'ss one of our absolute treasures in County Durham and it is award winning, it is...it is transformative, it's innovative and it is always growing. It is an amazing site. If you haven't had a chance to visit, Beamish, you need to go. But what's amazing about Beamish is if that shut down, that is thousands of people out of work. And it's not just the individuals who are working in the museum or volunteering the museum. It's also the businesses around it...the retail, the hospitality, the transportation, everyone who benefits from it, but also the impact that it has on learning and education. It is a site of learning, it's a site of inspiration. How many young people get to go through that when they were in primary school or secondary school? To get to go on a school visit to go see Beamish, learning about the past learning about the history, you know. We...we have...we have a saying in County Durham, which is, the past...the...the past we inherit, the future we build. This is from the Durham Miners Association. The idea is that we have the past that comes with us, but it's about how we build the future. What do we see in the future? I think the arts are a key to that. And that's just one example I brought, about film. If you look at the the games industry, that's huge. And we have opportunities there to grow and build. I mean, the games industry was one of the few industries that had almost no impact during the pandemic, because they were able to work remotely, they moved very quickly, redeploying staff to work from home and so forth. And people were desperate to play games, because they had nothing else to do. And so it was...it was a huge boon on the economy. And we have some amazing studios in the UK. And those should keep coming. We have an amazing talent in the UK. In fact, the north east has a couple sections that are really big for games and are getting bigger. And so you know, why...why would we see them as a drain on the economy? We need people who know how to write. We need people who know how to organize, to think critically, to plan. We have very few great works of literature that have been adapted into games, for example. Why not? We don't have a really good Shakespeare game. I am desperate for a great Shakespeare game. Any student out there, they'd like to do something fun. Can you imagine how amazing Macbeth would be as a game? It would be creepy. Yeah, even if it's just inspired by Macbeth, and you're in there, you're playing a character. We haven't...we haven't even tapped the surface yet, what we could possibly do with adaptation, with production. You know, so I...I would need...I would need better evidence to agree with that. And I think if you...you can always make an argument against something if you pull certain data points, but actually, we're seeing that the positive impact the economy, the benefits from, whether for better or worse, it's obviously up for debate. So for example, sometimes artists or artists' works are used in a somewhat more nefarious way to enable, you know, new construction sites and, kind of, regeneration in communities which can have its own controversial aspects. So it's not always a perfect story. But I imagine that regeneration projects would struggle if they didn't have the arts to enable that to happen. And if we don't have people working, learning and growing in the arts, how on earth are we going to get them to produce things for us? So I think it's, yeah, as I said, I could go on for hours about this Creative Fuse North East project. We have reports out there that evidence the positive impact that the project made the last round. We will have another report that comes out next year, that shows the direct benefit of the sector on our local or our regional economy at the very least. And of course, you can then apply that across the whole country if you need to. So I wholeheartedly disagree with that argument.

Bryony Armstrong: 43:47

That is the sentiment that we will be leaving listeners with, so thank you so much, Ladan, for coming on What's the Point today. It's been so amazing to get your insights.

Ladan Cockshut: 43:56

You're welcome. It was really enjoyable and obviously I hope you can share my contact details with your listeners because I'm happy to talk some more if anyone who has any any questions and so forth. So yeah, thank you.

Bryony Armstrong: 44:08

I absolutely will. Thank you for listening to What's the Point. If you enjoyed this podcast don't forget to subscribe. You can also find us on Twitter @wtppod_ and send us a DM if you want to get in touch. We'll see you next time with a brand new episode.